26

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

I could totally picture Dalton in the Eiffel tower scenes when mayday jumps off. I can picture his serious face similar to when we first see his face in the pts in daylights ajb007/lol

27

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

I can definitely see Dalton's Bond going up against the youthful villain pairing of Zorin and May Day. Certainly from a physical point-of-view it would suit Dalton's more youthful and energetic Bond. Also, Dalton's darker (dare I even say dour?) take on Bond would be an interesting counterpoint to the flamboyant performance of Walken. I would also like the idea of Dalton's Bond attempting to play the part of a "pompous heir" as this would be something of a stretch for his version of the Bond character, and could create a few moments of difficulty for Bond which would be intriguing to watch. On the other hand, the Moore-Macnee chemistry would be sorely missed. I think that the combo of those two actors on screen is one of the reasons that AVTAK is a film that I like to rewatch more often than many others (even though Macnee doesn't have that much screen time in the film).

Certainly Dalton could have brought a level of credibility to a lot of the action scenes, and not been as reliant on stunt doubles as Moore clearly was. It's definitely an enticing prospect to consider, but on the other hand, what would AVTAK be without the repeated cries of "Whooooooah" from Bond?

28

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

The Moore/Macnee chemistry was great, but especially in the Ascot scenes it looks really strange with an elderly M, Moneypenny and the two of them in an action film. I wonder if Dalton would have worked better than Moore as St John Smythe. The reason is that Smythe wasn't that far away from Moore's usual style and persona, sometimes it feels like we're watching his usual Bond routine  with another name. Dalton's Bond would have been further away from the Smythe character making it more of a contrast. A very good actor such as Dalton wouldn't have any problems portaying Smythe anyway.

It's in threads like this we notice Higgins is on holliday  ajb007/biggrin

Last edited by Number24 (23rd Nov 2019 15:19)

29

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

I don't know how much lies with Dalton or Moore being the main man. To me, it wasn't always the actor but the story and then the actor making it be what it is. In this case, A View To a Kill needed a big brush up for it to be even better than what it would've been.

I mean, you can't make scenes that drag on or humour that's a bit off better by just replacing the main man. To me, Moore being old and doing all that just adds to it lol, a practice in how far you can suspend your disbelief. That's what A View To a Kill is to me.

a reasonable rate of return

30

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

The problem with AVTAK is that the writing is lazy, and the writing is expecting Bond to be lazy. It’s written for Moore, expecting Moore to be Moore and expecting that an actor who is 56/57 years old won’t be doing much action. If you put any other Bond actor into the same script it would be even worse. At least with Moore in the role there is an excuse. No other actor could improve the film because we would be expecting a lot more from the whole film.

Some people say that the film would have been better if Moore’s age was acknowledged n the film. It is, just very subtly by how the film expects Bond to take things easy (when not in the bedroom/shower).

31

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

It would be better to just jettison AVTAK altogether and go straight to TLD.

AVTAK was so obviously written for Roger, and with so little effort behind it, that it doesn't make sense as anything other than a tired, just-another-Bond-film. And I say that as someone who enjoys it for the most part, even if I do think it's a lesser entry. TLD, on the other hand, felt like it was something close to a mission statement: a grittier, more serious espionage film.

More crucially, if Dalton had been approached, would he have wanted to appear in a film like that?

My Top 10 Bonds: Octopussy, Goldeneye, From Russia With Love, Tomorrow Never Dies, Licence to Kill, For Your Eyes Only, The Living Daylights, Moonraker, Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me.

32

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

This recent video from Being James Bond may be of interest- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HSN6yQm5hk

At about 7 minutes 30 seconds in, they discuss the possibility of Dalton in AVTAK.

33

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

I know it is not liked by many, but for me AVTAK is one of my favourite James Bond films (I also put 'Octupussy' in that list!)

It would certainly have been very different if Timothy Dalton had played James Bond but, for me at least, perhaps not better.

34

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

Joshua wrote:

I know it is not liked by many, but for me AVTAK is one of my favourite James Bond films (I also put 'Octupussy' in that list!)

It would certainly have been very different if Timothy Dalton had played James Bond but, for me at least, perhaps not better.

I too love Octopussy. Perhaps it's the most underrated of them all?

My Top 10 Bonds: Octopussy, Goldeneye, From Russia With Love, Tomorrow Never Dies, Licence to Kill, For Your Eyes Only, The Living Daylights, Moonraker, Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me.

35

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

DavidJones wrote:
Joshua wrote:

I know it is not liked by many, but for me AVTAK is one of my favourite James Bond films (I also put 'Octupussy' in that list!)

It would certainly have been very different if Timothy Dalton had played James Bond but, for me at least, perhaps not better.

I too love Octopussy. Perhaps it's the most underrated of them all?

That is precisely what I always say! I think Octopussy is often written off by people as one of the worst Bond films because of a couple of silly moments - Tarzan, sit!, and of course Bond in a clown suit (which is actually one of my favourite moments in the film). I always enjoy it when people express a fondness for lesser-loved Bond films like OP and AVTAK, because although neither rank among my top 10 (Octopussy isn't far off) they are two of the film that I enjoy frequently rewatching. The 1980s Bond films have a certain quality about them that makes it feel like spending time with beloved family members.

So now you've got me thinking about what Octopussy would be like with Timothy Dalton...   ajb007/rolleyes

36

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

Golrush007 wrote:
DavidJones wrote:
Joshua wrote:

I know it is not liked by many, but for me AVTAK is one of my favourite James Bond films (I also put 'Octupussy' in that list!)

It would certainly have been very different if Timothy Dalton had played James Bond but, for me at least, perhaps not better.

I too love Octopussy. Perhaps it's the most underrated of them all?

That is precisely what I always say! I think Octopussy is often written off by people as one of the worst Bond films because of a couple of silly moments - Tarzan, sit!, and of course Bond in a clown suit (which is actually one of my favourite moments in the film). I always enjoy it when people express a fondness for lesser-loved Bond films like OP and AVTAK, because although neither rank among my top 10 (Octopussy isn't far off) they are two of the film that I enjoy frequently rewatching. The 1980s Bond films have a certain quality about them that makes it feel like spending time with beloved family members.

So now you've got me thinking about what Octopussy would be like with Timothy Dalton...   ajb007/rolleyes

When I was a kid I wasn't a fan of Octopussy because I thought it was too serious compared to favorites of mine like Live and Let Die and Moonraker. Overall it isn't a silly film, because as you say it just has a few silly moments. Now it's one of my favourites. I still don't get the clown suit criticism, as it isn't silly or making Bond into a joke.

I like A View to a Kill, but not nearly as much as I like Octopussy. To make AVTAK into a better film, simply switching out Moore for another actor wouldn't make it a better film. Rewriting sections of the film and still keeping Moore could have made it better. If we had another actor in the role, we would have had an entirely different film with a much different story, and I don't think it could have been something we could compare to the AVTAK that we have.

37

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

Yeah, you can't exactly have David Bowie as an idea for a villain and expect to use anyone other than Moore for the leading role.
That just wouldn't be what AVTAK is about.

Ditto on Octopussy but again, Dalton wouldn't work for it as much I'd say because of how Roger can bounce off of the silly moments that the movie has. Bond in a clown suit makes it even scarier for me, imo. The lengths he'd go to to save the people...which in a way is thrown in the bin in A View To a Kill. I sustain that OP is the perfect swan song.

Ivanova is great as a concept but sucks as an execution. Being a violinist or what have you makes it feel like we're seeing draw ups of Living Daylights, not an actual character from Bond's past...and Dalton wouldn't work at all for that sequence.
I also can't see Dalton stealing a cab, horse-riding or doing much of the stuff Moore did on this one because it simply isn't the style of what his Bond would do at all.

a reasonable rate of return

38

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

DavidJones wrote:

It would be better to just jettison AVTAK altogether and go straight to TLD.

AVTAK was so obviously written for Roger, and with so little effort behind it, that it doesn't make sense as anything other than a tired, just-another-Bond-film. And I say that as someone who enjoys it for the most part, even if I do think it's a lesser entry. TLD, on the other hand, felt like it was something close to a mission statement: a grittier, more serious espionage film.

More crucially, if Dalton had been approached, would he have wanted to appear in a film like that?

There are plenty of action scenes in AVTAK, but Moore wasnt around when they were filmed  ajb007/biggrin
The scenes at the castle were tailor made for Moore, but I dont think the rest was particularly his style. Some scenes would actually have fitted Dalton better.

39

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

As has been said above, the movie relies heavily on Moore's own elements, and it would have been difficult to imagine anyone else in such situations. Nevertheless, assuming a page one rewrite has occurred, visualizing Dalton against Christopher Walken or Grace Jones is certainly easy but also promising. I never liked AVTAK, in my eyes, not only the plot lacked personality, but the American setting wasn't that interesting, as much as I love Dalton, he would not have changed that.

40

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

I think all those John Glenn era films could have worked with Dalton, they'd be maybe even better with a few tweaks.
Octopussy probably least of the three Glenn/Moores, it'd need the most tweaking. Come to think of it, couldn't even picture the chaste DaltonBond on the Island of Beautiful Women, so that's a major chunk of the story that'd need rewriting.
But aVTaK could mostly work. Its a darker story, with a younger supporting cast. Moore's presence actually undermines how dark the story is, rather confusing the tone of a transitional film.

Still lots of details would have to change. Patrick MacNee's casting would make no sense without Moore.
That stoopid iceberg/sub at the beginning, that's a visual callback to Stromberg's escape capsule. DaltonBond'd never use that. (I would like to see the ice chase expanded in place of the stoopid  iceberg/sub content, then we could say the film steals scenes from each of Gardner's first four novels)
And chaste Dalton wouldn't have had a sexy assistant waiting for him in the precredits, would not have shared a hot tub with a random sexy Russian spy halfway through, and definitely would not have slept with Mayday. But his relationship with Stacey would have been much the same, Moore was uncharacteristically respectful of her personal space until the very end.
Dalton might even have made the same quiche! (remember his picnic basket in the next film, his was a foodie Bond comfortable in the kitchen)

41

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

caractacus potts wrote:

And chaste Dalton wouldn't have had a sexy assistant waiting for him in the precredits, would not have shared a hot tub with a random sexy Russian spy halfway through, and definitely would not have slept with Mayday.

Is this the same so-called "chaste Dalton" who couldn't resist spending an extra hour on a boat with a thoroughly bored of tennis-pros random woman sailing off Gibraltar?

42

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

I think bedding Stacey at her house would have worked fine for DaltonBond. So would sex with the KGB agent. Bond shagging May Day would have worked much better for Dalton than it did for Moore.

43

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

Number24 wrote:

I think bedding Stacey at her house would have worked fine for DaltonBond. So would sex with the KGB agent. Bond shagging May Day would have worked much better for Dalton than it did for Moore.

I think there's a reason Dalton's Bond never does bedroom scenes. I cannot picture him doing any of these things. Connery is probably the only Bond that I could see taking on May Day in the bedroom.

44

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

I don't think Dalton would have saved AVTAK.  For starters, it's a Goldfinger clone absent of all the fun and glamour.  As has been noted, the writing is lazy, and the production, while globetrotting, still feels uninspired.  Moore's age didn't help, but if the script had remained, the movie would have seemed tired even with Dalton in the role.  David Bowie was wise to have not done it.

To me, it would have been better for Moore to sign off with Moonraker, which felt a fitting bon voyage, and for Dalton to have come in with For Your Eyes Only.  Skip OP and AVTAK and let Dalton wrap up with Goldeneye or Tomorrow Never Lies (assuming no six year gap), perhaps with an original film or two in between.

Something like AVTAK was better suited for Pierce Brosnan, who missed his opportunity to be a lighter Bond, which he was born to play.  He was just never tough enough to play the more butch version of Bond he tried to create, which is why his films, though profitable, seem almost campy by comparison to the Craig ones.  That lighter approach would also have worked for OP.

45

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

I think it would easily be in my top five, had Timothy Dalton started here. I don't care if the movie is a Goldfinger clone as long as it is enjoyable, and providing interesting elements.

1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. TLD 4. FRWL 5. LTK 6. TSWLM 7. CR 8. OP  9. GF 10. AVTAK 11. DN 12. MR 13. SP 14. LALD 15. QOS 16. TB 17. SF 18. TMWTGG 19. GE 20. TND 21. YOLT 22. TWINE 23. DAF 24. DAD

1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Craig 5. Lazenby  6. Brosnan

46

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

Gassy Man wrote:

I don't think Dalton would have saved AVTAK.  For starters, it's a Goldfinger clone absent of all the fun and glamour.  As has been noted, the writing is lazy, and the production, while globetrotting, still feels uninspired.  Moore's age didn't help, but if the script had remained, the movie would have seemed tired even with Dalton in the role.  David Bowie was wise to have not done it.

To me, it would have been better for Moore to sign off with Moonraker, which felt a fitting bon voyage, and for Dalton to have come in with For Your Eyes Only.  Skip OP and AVTAK and let Dalton wrap up with Goldeneye or Tomorrow Never Lies (assuming no six year gap), perhaps with an original film or two in between.

Something like AVTAK was better suited for Pierce Brosnan, who missed his opportunity to be a lighter Bond, which he was born to play.  He was just never tough enough to play the more butch version of Bond he tried to create, which is why his films, though profitable, seem almost campy by comparison to the Craig ones.  That lighter approach would also have worked for OP.

I disagree on a few points. I think all of the Brosnan Bonds wire of the «Fun Bond» type. The reason DaltonBond didn’t get land a lot was the AIDS epidemic. Dalton was younger and thougher than Moore, so bedring May Day would have looked much better with him. Especially the submachinegun massakre would have fitted Dalton better than Brosnan and specially Moore. AVTAK has fun and glamour - lots of it,

47

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

Number24 wrote:
Gassy Man wrote:

I don't think Dalton would have saved AVTAK.  For starters, it's a Goldfinger clone absent of all the fun and glamour.  As has been noted, the writing is lazy, and the production, while globetrotting, still feels uninspired.  Moore's age didn't help, but if the script had remained, the movie would have seemed tired even with Dalton in the role.  David Bowie was wise to have not done it.

To me, it would have been better for Moore to sign off with Moonraker, which felt a fitting bon voyage, and for Dalton to have come in with For Your Eyes Only.  Skip OP and AVTAK and let Dalton wrap up with Goldeneye or Tomorrow Never Lies (assuming no six year gap), perhaps with an original film or two in between.

Something like AVTAK was better suited for Pierce Brosnan, who missed his opportunity to be a lighter Bond, which he was born to play.  He was just never tough enough to play the more butch version of Bond he tried to create, which is why his films, though profitable, seem almost campy by comparison to the Craig ones.  That lighter approach would also have worked for OP.

I disagree on a few points. I think all of the Brosnan Bonds wire of the «Fun Bond» type. The reason DaltonBond didn’t get land a lot was the AIDS epidemic. Dalton was younger and thougher than Moore, so bedring May Day would have looked much better with him. Especially the submachinegun massakre would have fitted Dalton better than Brosnan and specially Moore. AVTAK has fun and glamour - lots of it,

I love the San Francisco portion of the movie.

1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. TLD 4. FRWL 5. LTK 6. TSWLM 7. CR 8. OP  9. GF 10. AVTAK 11. DN 12. MR 13. SP 14. LALD 15. QOS 16. TB 17. SF 18. TMWTGG 19. GE 20. TND 21. YOLT 22. TWINE 23. DAF 24. DAD

1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Craig 5. Lazenby  6. Brosnan

48

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

Wadsy wrote:

I love the San Francisco portion of the movie.

I like it too, although the reason I like it has more to do with the location than with the actual quality of the scenes that take place there. San Francisco has some nice history in cinema, particularly as the location of Hitchcock's Vertigo. Of course the climax with the airship over San Francisco and the Golden Gate bridge scene are spectacular and iconic and accompanied by excellent music. That sequence is one that will always keep me coming back to AVTAK.

49

Re: What would Dalton's AVTAK have been like?

Golrush007 wrote:
Wadsy wrote:

I love the San Francisco portion of the movie.

I like it too, although the reason I like it has more to do with the location than with the actual quality of the scenes that take place there. San Francisco has some nice history in cinema, particularly as the location of Hitchcock's Vertigo. Of course the climax with the airship over San Francisco and the Golden Gate bridge scene are spectacular and iconic and accompanied by excellent music. That sequence is one that will always keep me coming back to AVTAK.

I like A View To A Kill a lot because of the locations, score, action scenes and main villain of course since he is one of the best. I don't mind Tanya Roberts but it would have been better if she had been with a younger bond like Timothy Dalton and I just think the only problem I have with this film is Roger Moore, he just does not look good on this movie and feels like he aged significantly since the previous film, and then you have the lazy stunt doubles. These two factors really downgrade the experience for me, but for all the good I mentioned does put it near my top ten or just outside. It is nowhere near Roger Moore's worst for me, which still go to The Man With The Golden Gun. This movie is definitely the weakest one of the 80's in regards to the official series.

1. FYEO 2. OHMSS 3. TLD 4. FRWL 5. LTK 6. TSWLM 7. CR 8. OP  9. GF 10. AVTAK 11. DN 12. MR 13. SP 14. LALD 15. QOS 16. TB 17. SF 18. TMWTGG 19. GE 20. TND 21. YOLT 22. TWINE 23. DAF 24. DAD

1. Dalton 2. Moore 3. Connery 4. Craig 5. Lazenby  6. Brosnan