51

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

SpectreOfDefeat wrote:

thus leading to (unfair) perceptions that Dalton had been cast as 'only second best'. I do agree that while Dalton is undeniably tougher than Moore, he lacks a certain screen physicality when put in a line-up alongside other action heroes of the time such as Willis and Schwarzenegger.

As far as I know, the story was exactly this!

EON where ready to sign with Brosnan but Remington Steele went into another ( last and short) season and that‘s why Eon had to look for another main actor.

And Dalton not only lacks physicality ( that was not Moore‘s and Brosnan‘s asset too), he lacks personality and could not convince large parts of the audiences with his flip-flop performance which went to both extremes ( trying to act tough and human and vulnerable at the same time).
Say what you want about Craig, but he manages to cover all these bases much better than Timmyboy.

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------

52

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

SpectreOfDefeat wrote:

What do others think re the dated (or not) stylings of Moore's action scenes in comparison with Dalton's in LTK?

Moore was 58 when AVTAK was in the theatres and had established his own kind of Bond.
Actually he was Roger Moore playing Roger Moore imo.

Dalton was 43 when he did LTK.
Moore was 46 when he did LALD, if anything you should compare those two

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------

53

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

On the topic of Dalton's physicality: Dalton was fit and did a fair amount of the stunts.  But he came directly from another production to filming scenes for TLD so he didn't have time to prepare physically for the film and otehr than scuba training I don't know of any training he did for LTK. I think Dalton is the kind of actor who could have really thrown himself into preparing and training for the role of Bond. He could have teamed up with a SAS trooper and gotten into peak shape (not Schwartzenegger style, but like an athlete) and learned gun handling, martial arts etc. This type of preperation has become almost standard for actors doing action movies now. Back then it was much rarer  I think, but Daniel Day-Lewis spent a lot of time in the forrest and trained with an Airborne Ranger survival expert for The Last of the Mohicans in 1992. That kind of preperation may have suited Dalton as an actor and his personality, and the result may have given him an edge as an action star. One example is the very good PTS of TLD. After 007 is "shot" ("Hang on, you're dead!") he tackles the SAS guard by bumping into him ....
Imagine if Bond instead used a martial arts move used by special forces? it would have looked cooler and more real. Dalton would also have more to talk about to the press that he felt comfortable talking about.

54

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

"Dalton was 43 when he did LTK.
Moore was 46 when he did LALD, if anything you should compare those two."

I think Moore's casting in LALD had forced the action sequences to evolve in style even as far back as 1973. Moore even jokes in his book Bond on Bond (2012) that the Louisiana speedboat chase mostly involved him sitting down. Other than his fight with Kananga, which ends in a very cartoonish manner,  I can't think of much action in LALD that calls for real displays of physicality/toughness. Compare the action in LALD with the elevator fight in DAF or the beach fight in OHMSS and you can see that Eon knew that tough fight scenes weren't really Moore's strong suit.


"On the topic of Dalton's physicality: Dalton was fit and did a fair amount of the stunts.  But he came directly from another production to filming scenes for TLD so he didn't have time to prepare physically for the film and otehr than scuba training I don't know of any training he did for LTK."

I agree that Dalton coming straight from another production may have hurt his readiness for the demands of filming TLD; however, there is still an immediate increase in the general intensity of the action sequences compared to the Moore years (for example, the Afghanistan jail fight and the Land Rover scuffle.) I think it does comes down to presentation. For example, Brosnan may lack a physically intimidating air but the fight with Trevelyan on the satellite dish in GE is still one of the better final fights in the series for my money, a case of careful direction and editing to disguise Brosnan's deficiencies in this area.

"Imagine if Bond instead used a martial arts move used by special forces? it would have looked cooler and more real. Dalton would also have more to talk about to the press that he felt comfortable talking about."
I agree, especially given the Bond character's own military background and Dalton's desire to take the series back to its roots. Its little touches like this that make a Bond performance more convincing and perhaps give that polished edge that I feel is missing from much of LTK more generally.

55

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

So Kananga‘s death is cartoonish while Krest‘s death is brutal* just because Dalton plays Bond?

* they look pretty much the same to me...

As for Dalton having been rushed to TLD, that‘s just another excuse that holds no water.
At least he had enough time to read most of the novels to prepare for the role-  as he repeatedly praised himself having done - as if other actors would not have done the same.

I find all those excuses pretty funny and creative as it just shows how much effort is there to distract from the main issue: Dalton himself  ajb007/wink

Last edited by Higgins (18th Jun 2020 18:41)

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------

56

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

Higgins wrote:
SpectreOfDefeat wrote:

What do others think re the dated (or not) stylings of Moore's action scenes in comparison with Dalton's in LTK?

Moore was 58 when AVTAK was in the theatres and had established his own kind of Bond.
Actually he was Roger Moore playing Roger Moore imo.

Dalton was 43 when he did LTK.
Moore was 46 when he did LALD, if anything you should compare those two

You're inflating Moore's age. He was 57 when AVTAK was in the cinema (56 when he began filming) and 45 when he made LALD.

57

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

"So Kananga‘s death is cartoonish while Krest‘s death is brutal* just because Dalton plays Bond?
* they look pretty much the same to me..."

Inflating and exploding after eating a compressed-air pellet is scientifically impossible. Sanchez's demise (burning to death) is a little more realistic and comes in the context of a deadly serious Bond film (LTK) rather than a deeply silly one (LALD).


"As for Dalton having been rushed to TLD, that‘s just another excuse that holds no water.
At least he had enough time to read most of the novels to prepare for the role-  as he repeatedly praised himself having done - as if other actors would not have done the same."

Surely having read the novels is a plus in Dalton's general favour rather than a criticism? I read somewhere that Lazenby read Fleming's OHMSS and Brosnan read Fleming's GF but not sure about the others.

By the time of LTK Dalton was two years into his official tenure and as such his performance ought to have improved from TLD. Unfortunately the writing and direction couldn't keep up...

58

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

Matt S wrote:

You're inflating Moore's age. He was 57 when AVTAK was in the cinema (56 when he began filming) and 45 when he made LALD.

I was lazy, simply took the year of the premiere and subtracted the birthyear  ajb007/wink

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------

59

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

SpectreOfDefeat wrote:

"So Kananga‘s death is cartoonish while Krest‘s death is brutal* just because Dalton plays Bond?
* they look pretty much the same to me..."

Inflating and exploding after eating a compressed-air pellet is scientifically impossible. Sanchez's demise (burning to death) is a little more realistic and comes in the context of a deadly serious Bond film (LTK) rather than a deeply silly one (LALD).


"As for Dalton having been rushed to TLD, that‘s just another excuse that holds no water.
At least he had enough time to read most of the novels to prepare for the role-  as he repeatedly praised himself having done - as if other actors would not have done the same."

Surely having read the novels is a plus in Dalton's general favour rather than a criticism? I read somewhere that Lazenby read Fleming's OHMSS and Brosnan read Fleming's GF but not sure about the others.

By the time of LTK Dalton was two years into his official tenure and as such his performance ought to have improved from TLD. Unfortunately the writing and direction couldn't keep up...

You are missing my point - again.

The excuse ( and that was a new one for me) was, that Dalton did not have enough time to physically prepare for LTK.
He had time to read most or all the novels though.

And I was speaking about Krest‘s death and not Sanchez

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------

60

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

... and into which level of ‚cartoonishness‘ falls the 90 degree bend in the pipeline When Koskow is being smuggled out of Bratislava if we are talking seriously?

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------

61

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

Side issue- some sources give Timothy Dalton's year of birth as 1944, rather than 1946.

62

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

"... and into which level of ‚cartoonishness‘ falls the 90 degree bend in the pipeline When Koskow is being smuggled out of Bratislava if we are talking seriously?"

I think that's a production error...

To be fair there are more cartoonish moments in TLD than LTK, such as the ghetto blaster and the monkey jumpscaring Bond in the PTS. LTK by contrast has almost nothing save for the Q scene. This is why it lacks the necessary Bond charm to succeed as part of the series. Even the Daniel Craig Casino Royale has a few moments of genuine wit and levity, unlike the utterly dour LTK...

63

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

ajb007/lol  ajb007/lol  ajb007/lol
You have my blessing - you can now officially call yourself a Timboy.

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------

64

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

The term is  Daltonite  ajb007/bond

65

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

SpectreOfDefeat wrote:

Surely having read the novels is a plus in Dalton's general favour rather than a criticism? I read somewhere that Lazenby read Fleming's OHMSS and Brosnan read Fleming's GF but not sure about the others.

Connery said in an interview had read three Fleming novels. I think this was while he was making DAF. One of the novels was TB, I can't remember the others.

66

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

I'll take that as a compliment.  ajb007/smile

LTK as I have explained is a film I consider to be among the worst in the series.
Dalton's performance is less of a flaw than the plot, overexaggerated violence, poor use of contemporary politics, mostly unstirring action, and dull overall 'look'. Again, see the original essay and subsequent remarks for a lengthy dissertation on the above points.
Out of interest, what is your general opinion of TLD? I hazard a guess its not very positive...

67

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

Number24 wrote:

Connery said in an interview had read three Fleming novels. I think this was while he was making DAF. One of the novels was TB, I can't remember the others.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't remember either these days.

68

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

Edit: my last comment was in reply to Higgins.

Any other views on the action/plot/etc of LTK? Furthermore is it in fact considered by some to be superior to TLD?

69

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

SpectreOfDefeat wrote:

Out of interest, what is your general opinion of TLD? I hazard a guess its not very positive...

You're asking Higgins his opinion of TLD?

https://i.postimg.cc/Fk1vmQhX/boris.png

70

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

To me TLD is a pathetic piece of dogpoo.
I like LTK much, much better as the locations are better and Dalton does not annoy me there with his cute-romantic moments with Kara - and it has no balloon-popping  ajb007/rolleyes
In TLD Dalton shows glaringly that he was miscast, the role is too big for his personality and his attempts to overplay his personal shortcomings with Shakespeare makes it even worse  ajb007/crap

You‘ve asked for it, imo TLD is bad - DAF level bad!

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------

71

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

Hah, I really enjoy that you‘ve started this thread.

It‘s now some weeks ago since the last Dalton Defender came up.
I really enjoy your new theories and your constant denial to even remotely consider that the main issue was Dalton.

You may be interested in digging a bit deeper here:

https://ajb007.co.uk/topic/52531/ajb-li … ry-on-tld/

President of the 'Misty Eyes Club'.

-------Dalton - the weak and weepy Bond!------

72

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

A formidable duel-

Kara and Bond in TLD

VS

"I love James so much!" from Lupe in LTK...

Bond comes across as unsympathetic to Lupe's plight, a case of bad writing. Both Lupe and Pam are weakly acted in my view...

What do others think of the romantic aspect of the film?

73

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

Always nice to hear from you, Higgins, and to be reminded not only of your opinions, but of the fact that we are all idiots wearing blinders and making excuses for not landing in exactly the same spot as you.  Such fun.   ajb007/biggrin

Hilly...you old devil!

74

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

Sir Hillary Bray wrote:

Always nice to hear from you, Higgins, and to be reminded not only of your opinions, but of the fact that we are all idiots wearing blinders and making excuses for not landing in exactly the same spot as you.  Such fun.   ajb007/biggrin

Well put, Sir Hillary!

75

Re: James Bond's Darkest Hour: An Essay on Licence to Kill

ajb007/lol  I see a new Dalton-related thread with a serious sounding title and I find the biggest Dalton fan ever at the very end, Higgins!  I’ve been rewatching Magnum, P.I. and I’m now on Season 7, and when I read these post I can hear Higgins speaking!

"...the purposeful slant of his striding figure looked dangerous, as if he was making quickly for something bad that was happening further down the street." -SMERSH on 007 dossier photo, Ch. 6 FRWL.....